Rena Marutian: “The goal of russia’s genocidal practices is to erase Ukrainian national identity”

An interview with Rena Marutian, Doctor of Science in Public Administration, Professor of the Department of Global and National Security at the Taras Shevchenko National University of Kyiv, at the Museum of Civilian Voices founded by Rinat Akhmetov Foundation.  

The Kyiv History Museum is hosting the exhibition “Diaries of the Civilians: Voices of those who survived and those who did not”. This is a documentary project of the Museum of Civilian Voices founded by Rinat Akhmetov Foundation. 

As part of the exhibition, the project “Sukhanov Speaks” was openly filmed by Oleksii Sukhanov, a well-known journalist, actor, presenter, and ambassador of the Museum of Civilian Voices. His guest was Rena Marutian, a Doctor of Science in Public Administration, Professor of the Department of Global and National Security at the Educational and Research Institute of Public Administration and Civil Service of Taras Shevchenko National University of Kyiv. Her research interests include information and psychological security and information and semantic wars. The video of the interview is available here. 

Oleksii Sukhanov: The Museum of Civilian Voices founded by the Rinat Akhmetov Foundation has already accumulated more than 130,000 stories of peaceful Ukrainians. These are documentary facts, this is history. It is not a question of whether they should be collected. The question now is how to preserve this history and prevent it from becoming a means of interpretation for any subsequent government and a tool for manipulation.

Rena, can you give us a vivid example from world history when a historical fact was distorted to the point of changing the direction of historical movement?

Rena Marutian: As a scholar, I always start with definitions. The term “historical truth” exists more in the scientific discourse. According to the explanatory dictionary of the Ukrainian language, it is real information about past events that is considered true. Since antiquity, there have been intellectuals who wrote down this truth – Herodotus, Thucydides. This was called “true history”. And all we know are retellings of stories.

In the era of post-truth, it was said that the fact does not matter, only its interpretation does. That is, that there is no real knowledge, only a subjective attitude to certain events.

Historical truth can exist in two forms. The first is when a historian collects facts and has to confirm them with documentary evidence or sources. A museum can transfer an array of oral history to an archive, and this will be the basis for future research.

However, it should be understood that any written history is subjective, as the author inevitably passes it through his or her own system of values and knowledge.

Oleksii Sukhanov: So in history, as in science, there is no clear understanding that white is white and black is black?

Rena Marutian: This is a subjective assessment. There are facts that can be confirmed, and there are facts that have no documentary evidence, and it is always the historian’s interpretation. 

For example, the carriers of Trypillian culture did not call themselves that. Vikentii Khvoika called this culture Trypillian from the place where he found the artefacts. Each historian has his or her own concept of research, and it is very important that the facts are not adjusted to it.

Oleksii Sukhanov: But this is being done and has been done. 

Rena Marutian: A historian is a human being. I think Herodotus and Thucydides did the same thing. 

Oleksii Sukhanov: How can we avoid interpreting history? Develop critical thinking?

Rena Marutian: According to statistics, only 14% of Ukrainians have strong critical thinking. This is not bad, it is the “average temperature in the hospital”. According to global sociology, in every country in the world, this figure ranges from 10 to 15%.

This is because each person is part of different social groups and has several identities. For example, I am a scientist and I have critical thinking, but at the same time I have national, religious, professional and other social identities. Each of them has its own narratives and myths. Yes, I am a Doctor of Science, a Professor of the Department, but on a religious Christian holiday I will go to church because I am part of this national religious group, and there another collective consciousness is activated. So I can have both critical and religious thinking at the same time.

Oleksii Sukhanov: But in your religious thinking, you must also be critical of everything, right?

Rena Marutian: It is difficult for a historian to say that the record of historical events in the Bible is true, because there are large white spots and gaps in historical epochs. Faith has nothing to do with critical thinking.

Oleksii Sukhanov: You said that 14% of Ukrainians have strong critical thinking. Is this a stable figure, or is it changing? 

Rena Marutian: Critical thinking is a component of media literacy. The fact-checking resource Detector Media periodically studies the media literacy of the population. In 2020, this figure was over 80%, now it is 75%.

Why has it decreased? During wars and emergencies, stress levels increase. A person under stress turns off their ratio and turns on their emotio, and this is a field for manipulation, because fear, joy, sadness, etc. can be used to influence.

Nowadays, we are all in a state of constant trauma. How can we protect ourselves from this? Stop consuming too much information. Constantly watching the news feed increases stress.

Oleksii Sukhanov: But we are looking for hope!

Rena Marutian: And do you find it? The information is the same on many resources and if there is sensational news, it is printed everywhere.

Choose 2-3 resources that you trust and read them 1-2 times a day. My students always ask me how to determine what to read. It’s a very simple way: We have the Institute of Mass Information, which makes a ‘white list’ of Ukrainian media every few months. Now there are about ten resources that can be trusted. Choose three of them. The same goes for experts.

Oleksii Sukhanov: How often in the history of Ukraine has a historical fact become a means of working out a mistake rather than a means of interpretation and manipulation?

Rena Marutian: For example, the historical fact of the Battle of Kruty. In Soviet historiography, the authorities presented it as a defeat for the Ukrainian People’s Republic. There was even a narrative that the insidious UPR authorities threw unfortunate children under Muravyov’s troops, and thus destroyed the young students’ flower.

This was a distortion, because we know that they stopped Muravyov’s troops for four days. A conference was held in Brest at the time, during which the Ukrainian People’s Republic was recognised internationally as an independent state. If not for Muravyov’s troops, we could have started our statehood not in 1991, but in 1918.

But history knows moments when it is necessary to reframe events. The Spartans lost, they were all killed, but they remained in human history as an example of heroism. 

Oleksii Sukhanov: How did it happen that the Holodomor that Ukraine experienced was not historically studied? And because of this, has Ukraine once again entered a dangerous circle of relations with the so-called russia? 

Rena Marutian: Ukraine did not have statehood, its history was shaped by the empires of which it was a part. The Soviet empire did not need the memory of the Holodomor, because it had organised it. Therefore, it did everything it could to erase the genocide from the nation’s historical memory.

The people who survived it have a powerful collective trauma. People were afraid to talk about it, kept silent, because they knew that it was not official history. It was only after Independence that people started talking about this topic. And now every region of Ukraine has its own volumes with lists of those who died during the Holodomor.

That is, it all depends on the political regime in which the nation is located. If it is national, you can survive this trauma, in particular with the help of art. 

Now there is a retraumatisation, because the genocide continues – look at Bucha, look at our prisoners who weigh 30-40 kilograms when they return. This country is constantly repeating genocidal practices. It is because it has not spoken out for itself that the russians say it was a crop failure.

Oleksii Sukhanov: We were reminded of the thesis that “He who owns the information, owns the world”. Nowadays, there is much more information, but our ability to absorb it is much less. What is the likelihood that the tragedy we are experiencing now will pass through historical memory?

Rena Marutian: This phrase is outdated. It was in the 20th century that information had to be obtained. The modern world is oversaturated with it. That’s why communications experts now say that the one who controls the world is the one who controls your emotions. All the algorithms of the Internet and social media are set up to attract your attention.

As for the tragedy that is happening now. This war cannot be forgotten at all, because it is an existential war. We already have films. Look at how Ukrainian documentary cinema is developing. The world will learn our narrative about this war through documentaries.

Oleksii Sukhanov: What age group of Ukrainians has the highest level of consciousness?

Rena Marutian: According to statistics, the level of media literacy among young people under 25-30 is higher than among people aged 55-60. Perhaps this is due to the fact that young people are better at using technology and are able to verify information better.

Oleksii Sukhanov: How often do you see students showing detachment from the events in Ukraine?

Rena Marutian: In every age group, in every team, there will always be a percentage of such people. I do not see a critical mass of people who do not understand what is happening. Young people are very active, much more active than before the full-scale war, because they understand that this is their history.

Oleksii Sukhanov: What do you think is preventing average Ukrainians from raising their level of consciousness and critical thinking?

Rena Marutian: You always have to start with your own identification. It’s about realising that you are part of this nation, that you have common values, laws, enemies, heroes and holidays.

National identity is a mental shield that will allow you to be resilient. Of course, it is difficult in a time of war. Today I didn’t sleep well, tomorrow I received a message that one of my friends was killed or wounded, a house was destroyed somewhere, and so on. All this causes stress and distress, you cannot focus on your life, children and work. And this is the ground for manipulation.

And russia is doing everything for this. Sometimes people ask me why their fakes are so ridiculous. To blur the truth and create the feeling that there is no truth. If there are 10 versions of one event, it is difficult to understand which is true. 

Oleksii Sukhanov: But if you limit yourself in the information space, do you become more vulnerable to manipulation?

Rena Marutian: No. If you read the same news on 20 resources, you will not understand it better.

Oleksii Sukhanov: Who should be responsible for fostering national consciousness and critical thinking?  

Rena Marutian: There should be a synergy between state policy and the efforts of civil society. The state as a system includes both state and non-state actors, and only the combination of these two elements gives democracy. If it is only the responsibility of the authorities, we fall into dictatorship.

We have positive trends, the level of national consciousness is high now. The same opinion polls conducted after the full-scale invasion say that when asked, more than 90% of people are proud to be Ukrainians.

Oleksii Sukhanov: At the beginning of the full-scale invasion, putin declared denazification as one of his goals. Proponents of this thesis believe that he made some progress in this regard in the first years of the full-scale invasion.

Rena Marutian: No. Denazification has different dimensions. The supporters of this thesis say that after the war we will learn the number of our soldiers who died and it will be a shock.

But there is another dimension. He wants not to physically destroy, but to erase the identity – to make sure that there is no Ukrainians as a political nation at all, to deprive the country of its subjectivity. If any territory of Ukraine remains here that will be independent, it will be a collapse for him. 

The death of every person is a tragedy, but as long as there is an independent state here, no matter how many of us remain, we are representatives of the Ukrainian political nation. And so, as long as we are here, as long as we are fighting, as long as we are working and donating, as long as we are the rear that supports our front, then there is no question of any denazification.

By the way, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe has adopted several resolutions stating that the purpose of genocidal practices is to erase Ukrainian national identity. That is, the world sees everything.

Oleksii Sukhanov: We already know how Ukraine’s history has been used and rewritten. How can our history be manipulated in the future – in 20 or 30 years?

Rena Marutian: Here we have to be honest with ourselves. Elect the national government. So that it does not manipulate historical facts later. I don’t know when the elections will be held, but you need to engage in critical thinking and understand that the future of your country depends on your vote.

Oleksii Sukhanov: The philosophy of the awaiters. Do you have an answer to the question of why this philosophy remains invincible even under bombs? 

Rena Marutian: Do you remember Maslow’s pyramid? This is exactly what it is. I don’t care what kind of government there is, what kind of flags there are – the main thing is that there is work, money and food in the shops. These are people who turn off critical thinking and live by needs. They exist in every society. This percentage ranges from 5 to 10%.

Oleksii Sukhanov: And they feed on what is available on the Internet. These codes that are embedded in the content. Do you have an example of an animated film that has now been translated into Ukrainian, but it still contains the coding of the so-called russian world?

Rena Marutian: For a long time, everyone in our country watched Masha and the Bear. It has been translated into more than a hundred languages, including Ukrainian. 

Oleksii Sukhanov: What are the codes?

Rena Marutian: In particular, it is, as child psychologists say, Masha’s destructive behaviour, which turns everything into chaos. There are episodes where she runs around in an NKVD military cap. And the child viewer then blurs out these elements – since Masha was running around in it, it’s no big deal, it’s not like they say that these are murderers and totalitarian power... So there are hybrid things in there. 

But it is also possible to include positive things. Almost the whole of Hollywood is built on this, and all films there have a certain ideological basis that influences the behaviour of nations. For example, the famous film Braveheart is about Scotland’s struggle for independence. As a historian, I would say that 50% of the information in this film is disinformation. This film was released in the 1990s. A few years after its release, the Scots began to demand a referendum on independence. That is, they realised that there was a hero in their history who fought for independence, and their grandfathers did not finish the job. The referendum was held, they were literally 5% short, and to this day they repeat the idea that the time will come and we will hold a referendum again. In other words, a Hollywood film made with the right messages raised the nation’s self-awareness. 

Oleksii Sukhanov: Isolation by force from everything related to russia – how effective can this be?

Rena Marutian: In times of war, it makes sense. In Israel, for example, there is military censorship. No Israeli soldier can give an interview. Everything that is written about the army goes through state censorship so that the image of the army is very high. 

Of course, after the war, we will need to change the information policy. When we opened the Ministry of Information Policy, it was assumed that it would exist only during martial law. And I remember how Europe was outraged that we were opening Goebbels’ ministry. And when they realised that russian propaganda was also present in Europe, what did they do? 

Oleksii Sukhanov: They realised this only recently... Rena, tell us about your life hack. How can you effectively protect yourself from manipulation?

Rena Marutian: Always monitor your emotions. If you read or watch a product and feel strong emotions – euphoria, anger, fear, sadness – you need to tell yourself to stop and not react. Perhaps tomorrow there will be a refutation or explanation of this information. After all, I repeat, a person is controlled by those who control his or her emotions.